rota92
08-25-2003, 09:54 AM
okay, i see this question come up all the time and its time that there was a huge tutorial about it. Please no questions in this thread, just added information from old/current users of these setups as to why they went with what they did. this was this thread will stay purly informational.
i took this info from the TurboD16 forum, a place more people should go to ask about there setup on a turbo D. the two of these guys know what they are talking about, so trust what they say.
1. Where would you get the turbo? In the sense of saving money, would a used turbo be the best route? If it is used, how much do you suspect you'd pay for the turbo itself and to have it rebuilt if necessary (rebuilt correctly, not on the dinner table at home). Just put a price out there (no "he's my cousin" rates, either)
2. Piping: since most custom turbo kits do not come with piping, it would more than likely have to be fabricated. Estimate the cost of piping and the labor from a shop to to bend it and fit it for you (let's pretend you don't know anyone with a mandrel tube bender or exhaust guy). Don't forget about the rubber pipe connectors and hose clamps. That stuff counts!
3. The oil feed line and drain line. The fittings probably come on the turbo for the feed line and drain line, but you'd have to measure these distances and have the lines made, or make them yourself. Estimate the cost of these lines (just materials). Normally, the people who supply the materials would crimp the lines for you free of charge.
4. BOV flange: estimate the price of having it welded on the charge pipe. (I'd say $20 unless you had that done with your other piping, then it would probably only be $10).
5. The manifold: which one fits what? Can be a real pain in the ass finding one that will fit the turbo you want and can make turbo choice very limited. Estimate this price, too (I'd say about $400 - don't get prices from people that would hook you up - pretend you're a normal person).
6. Downpipe: Yeah, you can get that done at the local exhaust place, but you have to get the flange, have holes drilled, flange welded, etc. Estimate the price of that, too (I'd say another $50-$75 to be conservative).
7. Don't worry about the FMIC, that's beyond the scope of this thread.
8. Time: estimate how much time it would take you to get steps 1-6 accomplished (in hours) and mutliply that by about $30. That's a cheap ass rate for having someone make shit for your car, but I would think my time is at least worth that (this does not include installation).
-Now that is all you need to put on your car and turbo it, and a kit usually comes with, or has the option of doing it. now here is what was said in return about custom kits.
Okay here it goes. I could go into more detail, but I will just try and answer the questions you asked. Most parts can be found at junkyards on factory turbo cars for fairly cheap. Good deals can be had on eBay and forums also. I would say all these prices are fairly close to what anybody could find, but I am pretty sure you could find even better deals if you search enough. I will agree if you don't have a clue what your doing a custom kit is not for you, but I think with some research anybody could easily peice together there own kit. Let's just say a year ago when I rode in my friends turbo civic I thought he was going to blow up his transmission grinding gears like that lol... It was the loud ass BOV. I wanted a greddy kit at first, but couldn't afford one at the time and I really didn't want to spend that much. So I started researching and after looking at the price difference between a custom kit and greddy kit why not make my own kit. It would be more fun this way anyways.
1. You can get a used turbo in decent condition (doesn't need a rebuild) from junkyards, eBay, forums (dsmtrader.com is a good forum for DSM parts) for $100 to $150. IHI, T25, 14B all work well on d-series motors. Let's say you want a rebuilt or brand new turbo. I just checked eBay and found a brand new Garrett T25 with buy it now at $299. That works for me.
2. You can get mandrel bent piping off jcwhitney.com for fairly cheap and I see rubber IC fitting kits on eBay for like $40. So let’s say $100 for all that. You can also use IC pipes from factory turbo charged cars if you really want to save money.
3. $150 for oil lines, water lines and all miscellaneous parts I might have missed. You can get the lines at most hardware or auto stores. Maybe cheap boost and air/fuel gauges off ebay. Not the fancy ones, but at least something you can monitor things with.
4. You can pick up at 1g DSM BOV at a junkyard for about $25. Sounds okay and works well. You can get cheap BOV off eBay or from other factory turbo cars also. I will say $50 for the BOV and welding if needed.
5. The manifold is a big reason why a custom kit is so much cheaper. You can use the stock manifold from an 88-91 crx hf, 88-91 civic std, or 92-95 cx/vx. You could pick up one of these manifolds at a junkyard for $25 or probably even less. Use a little elbow grease and port the sucker out and give it a coat of paint. You will then need to have a machine shop make you an adapter plate so you can bolt the turbo to the manifold. I am guessing the plate will be $75. So that’s $100
6. You can have an exhaust shop make you a custom downpipe. Not really sure on this price, but you said $50-$75 conservatively... I will just go ahead and say $175. You might be able to use the downpipe from a factory turbo car with a little modification.
7. You said no IC, but I will include the intercooler anyways since I think it's an important part. You can get yourself a used DSM, audi, saab, probe, etc intercooler for $50 at junkyards, eBay, and forums. Let's say you want brand new FMIC though like the one I have. You can get the same one as mine off eBay for $275 shipped to your door (I got in on a group buy so I only paid $220 shipped).
8. Obviously if you don’t want to spend some time collecting all the parts buying a manufactured kit is the way to go. I am not really sure how long it would take for somebody to get everything together(couple weeks or months maybe). Might take a while if your a cheap bastard like I am. Plus I just got layed off so I don't have any money to spend on turbo parts. I am not sure what you mean by multiplying the hours it takes by $30 since I will be collecting all the parts myself. I am not going to charge myself for doing something I like to do (working on cars). The labor for the downpipe, adapter plate, welding, machine work is all included in the prices.
9. For fuel management you can get a brand new Vortech FMU and Walbro fuel pump for $200. Should be good up to 6 or 7 psi. If you want to go with the afc hack/injectors the price would be the same with either kit you decide to buy so I just went with the cheapest way.
Greddy turbo kit $1500
Greddy type 31 IC kit $650
Greddy type S BOV $175.
Total $2325
Custom turbo/intercooler kit with BOV
Total $975 with used turbo and intercooler
Total $1350 with brand new turbo and FMIC
If you scratch the FMU and decide to spend $1,000 on zdyne or hondata you will still be under the price of your basic greddy parts.
that is what they had to say, i agree with that second part totaly. now, if you are new to turboing and are not confident with building a turbo kit yourself, then you should go with a pre manafactuered kit. from my experience, a good deal is the way to do it.
originally i was going to go and make a custom kit, and keep the price under 1500 for everything, then run hondata and get all my traction and suspension pieces and keep it under about 3500.
this all changed when the apex'i kit came up with everything id need for 2 grand. IHI ball bearing turbo, and the quality of apex'i is second to none. even though there is not as much learned doing it this way, its a good start for me to learn how everything works, and to tune.
my next kit on my daily driver will be a custom kit, with a few things not seen very often on it... :wink:
Now here is a question that comes up a lot, Greddy vs. other kits.
the only way i would buy a greddy kit, is if it was at the right price, like i mean a steal, with tons of extras. now this almost happened twice, and after having the apex'i kit on at stock boost, thank god the apex'i kit came up. most people say that the greddy kit doesnt really come into itself until like 8 psi, well at 6 psi on the apex'i kit, the car is a beast. extremely fast, and if thats at 6 psi, well wait till 8 psi.
the greddy kit is a good kit, dont get me wrong, but its a massed produced kit, that is meant to be legal. other kits were too, but from what ive seen from the greddy kit it needs some work to get up there. ask the guys on here, the boost has to be cranked to get the power. now yes, this is because of turbo size, but i believe quality is more important. once again, not bashing on the greddy kit.
a custom kit can be made of old dsm parts, radiator hoses and intercoolers from other cars, for cheap too! that is one of the great things about a custom kit, you control the price. but you also control the quality and speed. it takes a lot to piece together a kit, but once you set your budget and use your search engines, ebay, and other forums the kit can be made up, and put on the car in no time. (pending on if you have the money up front)
the bottom line is that turboing your D16 is awesome. as far as im concerned, until k series swaps are really common in 5th gen hatches, im gonna keep turboing the D, and showing everyone whats it about. people will argue, "if a b series comes up with the same mods, the D is done." not always true, i know of a few turbod b18b's running more psi, and same HP numbers. yes its becasue of turbo size and which kit, but if people try to knock the D, just remember, if you get beat, you spent 3 grand less by turboing your D series. and when the motor blows, 500 for a new one...
now, if there are any questions pm any of us turbo d16 users and we will post the replys in here to help others. go get boosted!
i took this info from the TurboD16 forum, a place more people should go to ask about there setup on a turbo D. the two of these guys know what they are talking about, so trust what they say.
1. Where would you get the turbo? In the sense of saving money, would a used turbo be the best route? If it is used, how much do you suspect you'd pay for the turbo itself and to have it rebuilt if necessary (rebuilt correctly, not on the dinner table at home). Just put a price out there (no "he's my cousin" rates, either)
2. Piping: since most custom turbo kits do not come with piping, it would more than likely have to be fabricated. Estimate the cost of piping and the labor from a shop to to bend it and fit it for you (let's pretend you don't know anyone with a mandrel tube bender or exhaust guy). Don't forget about the rubber pipe connectors and hose clamps. That stuff counts!
3. The oil feed line and drain line. The fittings probably come on the turbo for the feed line and drain line, but you'd have to measure these distances and have the lines made, or make them yourself. Estimate the cost of these lines (just materials). Normally, the people who supply the materials would crimp the lines for you free of charge.
4. BOV flange: estimate the price of having it welded on the charge pipe. (I'd say $20 unless you had that done with your other piping, then it would probably only be $10).
5. The manifold: which one fits what? Can be a real pain in the ass finding one that will fit the turbo you want and can make turbo choice very limited. Estimate this price, too (I'd say about $400 - don't get prices from people that would hook you up - pretend you're a normal person).
6. Downpipe: Yeah, you can get that done at the local exhaust place, but you have to get the flange, have holes drilled, flange welded, etc. Estimate the price of that, too (I'd say another $50-$75 to be conservative).
7. Don't worry about the FMIC, that's beyond the scope of this thread.
8. Time: estimate how much time it would take you to get steps 1-6 accomplished (in hours) and mutliply that by about $30. That's a cheap ass rate for having someone make shit for your car, but I would think my time is at least worth that (this does not include installation).
-Now that is all you need to put on your car and turbo it, and a kit usually comes with, or has the option of doing it. now here is what was said in return about custom kits.
Okay here it goes. I could go into more detail, but I will just try and answer the questions you asked. Most parts can be found at junkyards on factory turbo cars for fairly cheap. Good deals can be had on eBay and forums also. I would say all these prices are fairly close to what anybody could find, but I am pretty sure you could find even better deals if you search enough. I will agree if you don't have a clue what your doing a custom kit is not for you, but I think with some research anybody could easily peice together there own kit. Let's just say a year ago when I rode in my friends turbo civic I thought he was going to blow up his transmission grinding gears like that lol... It was the loud ass BOV. I wanted a greddy kit at first, but couldn't afford one at the time and I really didn't want to spend that much. So I started researching and after looking at the price difference between a custom kit and greddy kit why not make my own kit. It would be more fun this way anyways.
1. You can get a used turbo in decent condition (doesn't need a rebuild) from junkyards, eBay, forums (dsmtrader.com is a good forum for DSM parts) for $100 to $150. IHI, T25, 14B all work well on d-series motors. Let's say you want a rebuilt or brand new turbo. I just checked eBay and found a brand new Garrett T25 with buy it now at $299. That works for me.
2. You can get mandrel bent piping off jcwhitney.com for fairly cheap and I see rubber IC fitting kits on eBay for like $40. So let’s say $100 for all that. You can also use IC pipes from factory turbo charged cars if you really want to save money.
3. $150 for oil lines, water lines and all miscellaneous parts I might have missed. You can get the lines at most hardware or auto stores. Maybe cheap boost and air/fuel gauges off ebay. Not the fancy ones, but at least something you can monitor things with.
4. You can pick up at 1g DSM BOV at a junkyard for about $25. Sounds okay and works well. You can get cheap BOV off eBay or from other factory turbo cars also. I will say $50 for the BOV and welding if needed.
5. The manifold is a big reason why a custom kit is so much cheaper. You can use the stock manifold from an 88-91 crx hf, 88-91 civic std, or 92-95 cx/vx. You could pick up one of these manifolds at a junkyard for $25 or probably even less. Use a little elbow grease and port the sucker out and give it a coat of paint. You will then need to have a machine shop make you an adapter plate so you can bolt the turbo to the manifold. I am guessing the plate will be $75. So that’s $100
6. You can have an exhaust shop make you a custom downpipe. Not really sure on this price, but you said $50-$75 conservatively... I will just go ahead and say $175. You might be able to use the downpipe from a factory turbo car with a little modification.
7. You said no IC, but I will include the intercooler anyways since I think it's an important part. You can get yourself a used DSM, audi, saab, probe, etc intercooler for $50 at junkyards, eBay, and forums. Let's say you want brand new FMIC though like the one I have. You can get the same one as mine off eBay for $275 shipped to your door (I got in on a group buy so I only paid $220 shipped).
8. Obviously if you don’t want to spend some time collecting all the parts buying a manufactured kit is the way to go. I am not really sure how long it would take for somebody to get everything together(couple weeks or months maybe). Might take a while if your a cheap bastard like I am. Plus I just got layed off so I don't have any money to spend on turbo parts. I am not sure what you mean by multiplying the hours it takes by $30 since I will be collecting all the parts myself. I am not going to charge myself for doing something I like to do (working on cars). The labor for the downpipe, adapter plate, welding, machine work is all included in the prices.
9. For fuel management you can get a brand new Vortech FMU and Walbro fuel pump for $200. Should be good up to 6 or 7 psi. If you want to go with the afc hack/injectors the price would be the same with either kit you decide to buy so I just went with the cheapest way.
Greddy turbo kit $1500
Greddy type 31 IC kit $650
Greddy type S BOV $175.
Total $2325
Custom turbo/intercooler kit with BOV
Total $975 with used turbo and intercooler
Total $1350 with brand new turbo and FMIC
If you scratch the FMU and decide to spend $1,000 on zdyne or hondata you will still be under the price of your basic greddy parts.
that is what they had to say, i agree with that second part totaly. now, if you are new to turboing and are not confident with building a turbo kit yourself, then you should go with a pre manafactuered kit. from my experience, a good deal is the way to do it.
originally i was going to go and make a custom kit, and keep the price under 1500 for everything, then run hondata and get all my traction and suspension pieces and keep it under about 3500.
this all changed when the apex'i kit came up with everything id need for 2 grand. IHI ball bearing turbo, and the quality of apex'i is second to none. even though there is not as much learned doing it this way, its a good start for me to learn how everything works, and to tune.
my next kit on my daily driver will be a custom kit, with a few things not seen very often on it... :wink:
Now here is a question that comes up a lot, Greddy vs. other kits.
the only way i would buy a greddy kit, is if it was at the right price, like i mean a steal, with tons of extras. now this almost happened twice, and after having the apex'i kit on at stock boost, thank god the apex'i kit came up. most people say that the greddy kit doesnt really come into itself until like 8 psi, well at 6 psi on the apex'i kit, the car is a beast. extremely fast, and if thats at 6 psi, well wait till 8 psi.
the greddy kit is a good kit, dont get me wrong, but its a massed produced kit, that is meant to be legal. other kits were too, but from what ive seen from the greddy kit it needs some work to get up there. ask the guys on here, the boost has to be cranked to get the power. now yes, this is because of turbo size, but i believe quality is more important. once again, not bashing on the greddy kit.
a custom kit can be made of old dsm parts, radiator hoses and intercoolers from other cars, for cheap too! that is one of the great things about a custom kit, you control the price. but you also control the quality and speed. it takes a lot to piece together a kit, but once you set your budget and use your search engines, ebay, and other forums the kit can be made up, and put on the car in no time. (pending on if you have the money up front)
the bottom line is that turboing your D16 is awesome. as far as im concerned, until k series swaps are really common in 5th gen hatches, im gonna keep turboing the D, and showing everyone whats it about. people will argue, "if a b series comes up with the same mods, the D is done." not always true, i know of a few turbod b18b's running more psi, and same HP numbers. yes its becasue of turbo size and which kit, but if people try to knock the D, just remember, if you get beat, you spent 3 grand less by turboing your D series. and when the motor blows, 500 for a new one...
now, if there are any questions pm any of us turbo d16 users and we will post the replys in here to help others. go get boosted!